Jennifer Lee
About My Guest
Jennifer Lee is the principal of Agent Atelier, residential design consulting based in the San Francisco Bay Area. Her background in the luxury sector (Chanel, Louis Vuitton, Jil Sander) and house remodeling uniquely combine to personalize and elevate the homes of her clients.
Jennifer has an international roster and her residential projects include homes in New York, New Jersey, and California. A native of San Francisco, she has a business degree from Temple University and currently resides in Piedmont, California.
Shervin Talieh:
Well, today, I am continuing with episode three. And I have a guest here and let's start off with your name. Can you please tell me your name?
Jennifer Lee:
Yeah. Hi, Shervin. I'm Jennifer Lee, and I live in the San Francisco Bay Area.
Shervin Talieh:
And Jennifer, have you lived there all your life?
Jennifer Lee:
Well, I've recently come back to it. I was born and raised here on the peninsula. And moved away for college. Moved right after I got married back east. I've been across the country five times. But I finally resettled in San Francisco proper in 1996. So I've been here for a while now.
Shervin Talieh:
Great. And we were introduced through some... I think a mutual contact through Telepath. And let me maybe ask this question, why do you think it was suggested that you and I speak?
Jennifer Lee:
Telepath, I love it. You get a lot of intellectual stimulation. But it's kind of an echo chamber of a certain kind of person, gender-specific, upper middle class to upper-upper-upper class in the Bay Area. Really, a lot of the conversations evolve around what these people are involved in, which is tech and that life. But Shefali and Anastasia and I think a lot of like, and we were seeing a lot of the same patterns even though we joined that community at different times. And so we've bonded because of that.
Shervin Talieh:
So today, we want to explore misogyny and sexism. And I'd like to start with, what is your earliest memory of either sexism or misogyny?
Jennifer Lee:
That's a great segue. A check out from that echo chamber to what we are discussing. I have a very early memory of it. My first memory of misogyny is sexual objectification when I was seven. Now, do you have kids?
Shervin Talieh:
I do.
Jennifer Lee:
How old are they and what's their gender?
Shervin Talieh:
I have a 19-year-old son, a soon to be 18-year-old daughter, a three and a half year old son, and a 10-month old son.
Jennifer Lee:
Oh, okay. So yeah. I was going to say you can raise your kids in a uniform manner, but there's nature and there's nurture, right? So the girls are different from the boys and the worries of a parent are different for their sons and daughters. So in real time, I didn't realize it was going on. I was seven years old. Imagine your seven-year-old child. All I knew is I was uncomfortable. In hindsight, you realize what your creepy feeling was that it's your inner voice shouting to protect you. But I was on a museum tour with my mother and my two brothers, and my aunt and her kids. So there was six of us, little kids, and all under 10 years old. And one of the workers at the museum kept staring at me. It was really obvious because as we went from room to room to look at the different exhibits, this guy was following us. And at first, I thought he's a guard, but you know when eyes are on you. And it was just uncomfortable.
Jennifer Lee:
Finally, when we were leaving, he comes running out to talk with my mom. And he asked where we were from because we were in New York City. And he welcomed us to the city even though we'd been there millions of times before. Just chit chatted. And then finally as we're about to walk out of there, he looks at me and he says, "Cute girl." He doesn't say cute kids. He doesn't look at everyone else. I just stared at him because it was disconcerting, and it felt so weird. My mom just accepted the compliment and left. So that's just kind of my earliest memories. As I said, I didn't understand when it was happening or what was happening. But now as I got older and all these other things come at you as a girl and as a young woman and as a woman, you realize what it was.
Shervin Talieh:
When did you realize what had happened? How many years later?
Jennifer Lee:
So many. It was when I had a daughter, and she was three. We were in a coffee place here in Berkeley. And a guy came up to her, not to me as her mother, but to her and said, "Oh, you have such beautiful eyes." She's half Asian, but she's got these very bright green eyes. And I just kind of looked at him and he backed away. But my daughter was looking at me for what my response was going to be. The polite thing as women are raised is to say, "Oh, thank you." But first of all, I wasn't thanking him for approaching my child. And also because I wanted her to realize that how I act is a clue to how she should act, right? You've got to set up some parameters. So that was kind of it. So it flashed to me at that point, and it was many years later, 30 years later or something.
Shervin Talieh:
How do conventions change? And what I mean by that is something is sort of deemed acceptable or appropriate like an unsolicited compliment, and I'm using air quotes, obviously, you can't see that, or an observation about a woman's body or her physical appearance. Again, unsolicited.
Jennifer Lee:
Right. This is an interesting dance, right? Because if you are young or even if you're older, if you're dating, there's kind of a ritual to the give and take and what's appropriate. And you're trying to engage with another person that you are potentially interested in. So you don't put up walls and say like, "Oh, anyone that approaches me is after something." Or sometimes an interchange is just an interchange. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. And other times, it's I guess less innocent. But I think like any woman, it depends on what you're bringing to the experience, right? If you have grown up and you're maybe extroverted and chatty with people, maybe a lot of people see that as an invitation to engage or to flirt, whatever. As you wear provocative clothing, some people feel it's their opportunity to comment on that.
Jennifer Lee:
I guess I'm saying it really depends on the situation. And it depends on what kind of interaction you seek as well, right? It's all part of it, how you present yourself, how you take the information that's coming to you, how you answer the person that's talking with you. So no, no, no, it's different. It changes, right? It reflects what's happening in society.
Shervin Talieh:
So you mentioned at least two experiences that were tied to being with family. In one, you were the infant or toddler, or at least a young child, and the other one, you were with your daughter. Can you describe experiences that you've had professionally?
Jennifer Lee:
Yeah. So I think like a lot of young women that go into male-dominated industries, I went into banking when I was out of college, financial services. It's a conservative industry, but also being male dominated and maybe feet on the ground, there's a lot of women in those positions, but all C-level at that point in the '80s and many SVPs, any VPs were men. So it was kind of a good old boys network. And I think you go along with the jokes. You can't be overly sensitive if you want to keep your job, not as a condition of the job, but just to be one of the players, the team players that gets along with everyone. That understands socially, and skill set wise, what's expected of you. Business travel, there's a lot of unspoken behavioral rules that women have and men had.
Jennifer Lee:
And I'd say we may have been a lot more laxed than women in the arts in 2010 through 2020, it's just a different time now. And the men are more evolved, and the women are more evolved. So we don't have or we may have issues, but someone's going to call a guy out for them. Whether it's being called something endearing, say, or honey or sweetie, having a hand on a leg maybe not under the conference table, but certainly at dinner with clients, things like that. And it was very common though uncomfortable for many of us. And women have a wonderful whisper network where we keep each other up to date on what's happening with this guy, this officer, or this C-suite person. And it's always interesting because it's always so similar. It's almost like a template.
Shervin Talieh:
What do you think happened 10 or so years ago that started this shift?
Jennifer Lee:
It's a huge societal shift, right? Men were raised by women who were kind of the second wave feminism. They were women that went to work. They were women that were educated. They were women that were mothers that were a lot of times equal to their fathers, maybe not in earning power, but certainly in education level and how they ran the household. And I think these were great guys and ambitious girls and guys from a lot of these educated families. And I think they were exposed to a lot more in terms of what a woman's role is and how to treat a strong woman basically and respect her. They respected their mothers, of course. So they respected other strong women that they came into contact with and it's really a societal shift, and welcome.
Shervin Talieh:
Following that model then, hopefully in another 10, 20, 30 years, things will continue to evolve and get better. Are you optimistic in general about that?
Jennifer Lee:
Well, I sort of am. I heard on NPR not too long ago that there's certain segments of society that will reach equality some in our lifetime, some not. And the first, of course, is LGBTQ equality, especially for men that are identified as gay or are gay, we will reach equality by 2021 or 2022. In terms of gender equality, they're saying it's going to be much longer, like 2040. So we'll see that maybe in 20, 25, 30 years. And in terms of age equality, they don't see this for something like 90 years. That's the most interesting one to me as a woman, as a person who's aging. Not everyone's going to be a woman or a man. If you're a woman, you're not going to be a man. If you're a man, you're not going to be a woman.
Jennifer Lee:
Not everyone is LGBTQ. There's maybe 10%, possibly 15%. But everyone is aging, everyone is getting older. Yet, that's the last taboo. That's the last hurdle of equality that we're all going to get to in 90 years or something. Most of us aren't going to be alive to see that. Right? And that's the one that 100% of people are, is we're all aging. Whether you're 20, whether you're 90, whether you're 40. So that's an interesting one. So am I hopeful? Yeah, I hope to have equality for women much sooner than in 20 or 25 years. But the ageism is an issue as well, and I'm not as hopeful for that. We're a country and a society obsessed with youth.
Shervin Talieh:
On that note, it's interesting because that's certainly not the case in other cultures where age and the wisdom that comes with age is treated with reverence and respect. And the concept of a nursing home is alien in many societies. What are your thoughts on that?
Jennifer Lee:
Well, this is true, right? Whether you're going to Asian countries, East Asia, and Southeast Asia, and European countries, I know a lot of Europeans. Latino countries, you have generations that live together and have the benefit of maybe a grandparent who can watch the kids while both parents work. Families living under one roof. The wisdom that comes with having grandparents at home, having parents at home, having brothers and sisters at home. Talking about it takes a village, that's an optimal situation for a kid to have siblings and friends and family. And not only your parents, but your grandparents. This is the only country, the United States and maybe it's kind of evolving into a lot of westernized countries where the focus is on the nuclear family. Dad, mom, 2.5 kids, and a dog.
Jennifer Lee:
And that works to a certain extent until there's a divorce or an explosion of a family situation where your family that as you know it is not intact anymore. So you don't have the support system of extended family, relatives, aunts, and uncles because we're each in our own pod. And the pod works if everyone's a good communicator and you have the resources to live okay and a house and all that and a nice community. But after that, it's kind of sub-optimal. It's really nice to have extended family around and I think we can learn from a lot of other cultures.
Shervin Talieh:
So you touched on something about how especially work under sort of these very specific circumstances, and it feels that having the resources as an example. So shifting back to misogyny, do you believe that women... Does affluence impact both sort of the quantity and the type of sexism that women experience?
Jennifer Lee:
Yeah, I think so. I mean, in my experience, it's been interesting, right? I was a stay-at-home mom for over 20 years. And this is where I am right now. Most of my career, I've spent as a stay-at-home mom. So out of college and prior to having children, I was in financial services, right? I was very determined to have a good career and kind of zoned in on that. And it just so happened that I ended up moving a lot and supporting an ex-spouse in his career, et cetera. And trying to come back to that now that I'm an independent person, it's difficult, right? I mean, my interests vary, but I love banking and investing. But after decades out of a job, getting a foot in the door to re-establish a career is something... I mean, women are basically tracked out of careers, right? You're not on a linear timescale where you're doing your career and you're always in it. You never step out to be a wife, or a mother, whatever. And men don't have this dilemma.
Jennifer Lee:
So not only is there this dilemma for the non-working woman of coming head to head with women that do work or have to work, you've got this bubble of privilege, I guess, as a non-working mother to raise your children and to tend to your family and tend to your spouse's needs. It works so well when it works. And what kid doesn't want 100% of their mother's attention of them? And what spouse doesn't want someone to have their right and left hand held all the time? But when it goes south, as it did for me, women are left with hard choices, I guess. You don't really have... It's not encouraging in terms of trying to walk back into the business or getting your foot into the door in traditional businesses. So for me, it morphed into, how can I best finish raising my kid, getting them launched, and then coming back to a career? And I'm very privileged that way because I had the resources to start my own business, but many people aren't in that same boat and it's very difficult for them.
Shervin Talieh:
This sounds like a form of structural misogyny.
Jennifer Lee:
That's a perfect way of putting it. You can look at it as being punished for being a mother. You can look at it as stepping off the track and not being able to step back into that same career track. What do they call it? The motherhood tax or something. You do take a hit for it. And some people come back. Some women can get back on the track maybe if they only take a couple of years off, but they're certainly off partnership track for a while or off a trajectory that maybe a man wouldn't have had if he had taken off time. But we don't know. It's a pretty American problem and phenomenon.
Shervin Talieh:
I think for most men, they're not aware. Actually, I'm not smart enough to comment for most men. Let me talk about myself.
Jennifer Lee:
Right. Not all men.
Shervin Talieh:
I'll say this. What I've started to learn through conversations with my partner and my oldest son primarily is that structural misogyny and just misogyny and sexism in general impact men as well. It's not just about the direct consequences for the women that are being victimized by it, but it impacts men as well. Does that sound right to you? Does that sound familiar to you? What are your thoughts on that?
Jennifer Lee:
Oh, it's absolutely familiar and I think correct. That boys are taught from a very young age not to express... Well, emotions like anger and hitting and fighting are absolutely fine. But feelings of sadness or expressions of sadness and what a lot of people would call weak. Boys aren't allowed to express these feelings. And I think there's a lot of internal angst from this and growing up with physical problems. A lot of them come out in anger in men later on against... And fighting on the schoolyard or picking on their siblings or torturing animals. I mean, there's a lot of ways that this anger comes out in boys and then later in men. So this serves no one. It doesn't serve the men. It doesn't serve the people in men's lives. It doesn't serve their parents in trying to raise boys equal to their daughters. And it seems like we've come a long way on one hand, and on the other hand, we've got the rise of militants and a lot of angry men that have a lot of guns and we are in two different spheres now and it's concerning.
Shervin Talieh:
It is. Yeah. I don't even know what to make of that. I want to shift gears just a little bit. You sent me prior to this conversation, you sent me a New York Times article. There was a book titled... The book is called Entitled, and the author is Kate Manne, M-A-N-N-E. I don't know if it's Manne or Manne or Manne. And the author of this article, Mary Katharine Tramontana, she basically goes through a conversation around mansplaining. And I am guilty of mansplaining. I have done it in the past and been completely unaware of it. And I have done it even after I was told what it was. So I'd like to spend a few minutes talking about mansplaining. Do you experience mansplaining? Have you experienced it? What's it like?
Jennifer Lee:
Well, I would say a woman but any human has been mansplained to, I think, because men being listened to is kind of the default, right? Most men don't understand the stereotypical, "Oh, women always want to talk," or, "Men talking over women." It's not necessarily true. We definitely want to be heard, but we want you to listen, but there's not a lot of listening going on. Right? The default for men is you're always heard. So there's no need to engage. What you say goes. Whether it's you as dad, you as the boss, you as the man in your relationship. And you say declaratively and that's pretty much it, right? Whether you're in a meeting, in a bar with your family.
Jennifer Lee:
But for women, we're talked over. We're talked over by our kids, by your spouses, in meetings. We're talked over in the classroom with fellow students that are boys. So why would a man want to listen to his partner's concerns at home when we've been blocked out for the rest of the day? Right? The home is the sanctuary where you're heard and understood and valued. So maybe there's wives or partners are not as mansplained at home, but certainly in a business setting or in a boardroom, men who are... What are they? 485 of the top Fortune 500 companies, something like that, you're always being heard. You're always talking. You're always explaining your expertise. You're always explaining things even if it's not your expertise.
Jennifer Lee:
So if that's the default, then women... I mean, we're here to listen, of course, but we want to be heard. But how do we kind of try to balance that out? I think for a lot of older men, it's not as easy because this is the way it has been in business. And this is the way they know it. And this is the way they conduct their lives. And this is the way they stay where they're at. But for men that now have daughters, they don't fight for their wives. They don't fight for their mothers. They don't fight for their sisters, but certainly, they do speak up for their daughters. And so you see that now with this generation who's bringing up their daughters and their sons with the same privileges, with the same advantages, with the same attitude that you can do anything and I'll listen to what you have to say. And you're valued for your opinions. It's really important. And it's happening now. It's happening slowly, but usually takes men that have daughters to really start fighting for women.
Shervin Talieh:
You connected some really interesting dots there, and I think it's worth just revisiting and making sure that I got this correctly. So just like we have a lot of derogatory taxonomy and terminology, men have come up with this, for example, we say soft skills. They're not really important, right? They're soft skills, listening. That's an example, right?
Jennifer Lee:
Yeah. That's a nomenclature. Right? Yeah.
Shervin Talieh:
Right, exactly. I mean, it's just built in to our DNA now at this point. So what you're saying is men have created a society and the rules in that society that perpetuate the need for women to be quiet essentially. They're punished when they speak up. Men talk over them or then mansplaining to them and do other sorts of things. Or just let's call them disincentives, if you will, for even having a voice. They then go home, which is supposed to be... And this is the thing that you said that's really causing me a lot of self-reflection right now. They come home, which is supposed to be where they can actually express themselves openly. It's supposed to be safe there. And instead, what happens is that they are then labeled as being too chatty or something to that effect. And that's horrific because it not only pushes them further into that sort of isolation, but it also reinforces the very patriarchy, right? It reinforces the inequality in some ways. So am I getting that right?
Jennifer Lee:
Absolutely. There's that trope like, "Oh, my wife always wants to talk and blah, blah, blah." Or, "She's always blah, blah, blah." Well, yeah, because that's our safe space too supposedly. And if you can engage with your boss, the people in the building, people on the street, at a store, you want to come home and you want to engage with your partner, your significant other. And a lot of times, they don't want to hear it. And granted, let's play the other side of the coin. They've had to listen to those bosses as well even if you're a man, right? You've got to listen to your boss drone on, or you've got to play nice in the sandbox at work and everything else. But you want to come home. You want to engage. Maybe give them time to diffuse a little bit.
Jennifer Lee:
But yeah, this tired trope of women always want to talk and this, I mean, any of us who have had kids, babies, and watch the boys and girls grow up, the girls grasp language or start using words much earlier than the boys do. Hashtag not all children. It is nature. But somewhere probably in junior high, this talent for communicating that many girls have, many women have, gets kind of shut down. You're right because it is... You are devalued when you speak up, when you have an opinion. And when it's a strong opinion, even worse, right? You can see what's happening on the internet, on Twitter, on other social media platforms. And it's hard. I think it's difficult for women. So yes, it is structural. The patriarchy is being forced to kind of reevaluate. Well, it's not being forced. Women are trying to force the patriarchy to accept that this behavior and these structures don't serve them and don't serve their sons. And that there needs to be changes not for women but societally.
Shervin Talieh:
In the article, there's a reference to a term that I had not heard of before, but it is perfect. Himpathy.
Jennifer Lee:
That is great, isn't it?
Shervin Talieh:
I'd never heard that. Yeah. What are your thoughts on himpathy?
Jennifer Lee:
Well, I think there's...
Shervin Talieh:
Can you explain what it is too?
Jennifer Lee:
Yeah, it's a him, it's a male having sympathy. And I think it's a matter of definition, I guess. Men will say, "Oh, I'm sympathetic. I feel what you're feeling, this, that." But they're not specifically feeling the sympathy or the understanding that women need to try to level the playing field. Maybe part of it is ignorance where, "Oh, I didn't know what that was." Or, "Okay, I'll listen to you." And part of it is by design. Why is anyone in power willing to share power? And you can say, "Oh, because it's for the good of society. Because it's for their own good, for their family's good, for their sons' good, and their daughters' well being," but it is really to... I won't say we want everything to be equal or feminists want everything to be equal. I don't know if that's necessarily a reality. But like Ruth Bader Ginsburg said, just keep your feet off our necks. Have a little himpathy and understand that's where we're coming from. I think it's not to be sympathetic in general, but specifically to have sympathy for women that need to be heard.
Shervin Talieh:
You've mentioned twice the different waves of feminism. And something that I've actually asked this question on Telepath, which was tied to the third wave of feminism, which is this idea that women... And again, my language is not going to be refined here, but the idea that women are reclaiming, for example, their sexuality and the contrast of the third wave versus the second wave around how a woman's appearance as an example. What they wear and the terminology, et cetera, that was very new to me. And sort of understanding why something that certainly in the second waves felt like a dinosaur, like a swimsuit edition of Sports Illustrated. I think that was actually the specific question posted on Telepath. The second wave would certainly frown upon that whereas the third wave would say, "It's beautiful, it's powerful, it's their body, it's their power, et cetera." What are your thoughts on that?
Shervin Talieh:
First of all, am I accurately understanding that? And then how does that segue into the fourth wave, which is to me the most undefined or the one that I'm still struggling to sort of understand in terms of the framework?
Jennifer Lee:
Well, it's still evolving, this fourth wave. So we're in it, it's happening. I think that's why Gloria Steinem was such an anomaly in that first wave where she was this... What we call now the hot chick. She was this brilliant, beautiful, outspoken, well spoken woman that represented what being a woman in the United States could be, which is equality, health, health insurance, all the things that were being billed as socialist right now. And she came along and kind of everyone couldn't say, "Oh, look at those kind of ugly feminists, this, that, the other thing," which this name tagging women is meant to hold us back to, "You're pretty. You're ugly. You're fat. You're this." Whatever. It's a way to control how people see you. It's trying to control the narrative.
Jennifer Lee:
I'm kind of a hybrid. My background was in banking originally, but I had a long history in luxury retail as a buyer and a personal shopper. So for me, it was about improving your look, what's in your closet, all this other stuff. Because presentation is everything. So I think with this third wave of feminism to embrace how you look and that you're gorgeous and that you can be in a bikini and still be a feminist, although this third wave was really hesitant to embrace the word feminism, I guess they grew up as the default of, "Yes, there is abortion on demand. Yes, we have access to healthcare. Yes, we can be educated and we're getting more law degrees and MDs on a percentage basis than men, et cetera, et cetera." So they didn't know any differently, but now that things have started to get peeled back in the last 15 years or so, they're saying, "It's time to speak up and it's time to speak up about not wanting to roll back Roe v. Wade healthcare access for all.
Jennifer Lee:
Some of the very basic important things that feminists wanted not only for ourselves, but for our families, for society to... All boats are lifted kind of thing. And so yeah, I get it when I see things on social media all the time like, "Oh, of course, you are a feminist. Look how you look or you're old or you're overweight." No. I'd say Kim Kardashian is a feminist and so is her mother and all the seven sisters or however many she has. And they're using their beauty platform and their privilege and their lifestyle to kind of, yes, get their own, but it's really move the conversation forward on what women can accomplish, what they can do for themselves, what they can do for our families. And that we don't necessarily need men to move us forward. In fact, that's what's been holding us back. So it's an interesting dichotomy, but I don't think being into clothes and fashion as I am from a historical perspective and as a collector makes me any less of a feminist than any other woman.
Shervin Talieh:
So two final questions that I want to run by you. The first one is, does it take away from this subject the fact that a 52-year-old man is, that being me, is asking these questions and inserting himself into the topic? I'm curious to know what your thoughts are.
Jennifer Lee:
No, I think it's wonderful. I think listening is the first step to acknowledging that things are unequal and that you're willing to listen and try to move the dial, so to speak, and engage with women and listen to what we need, what we want. And it helps your daughter and it helps your sons and it helps your partner. It's something that is necessary to evolve. It's a huge step. It's a huge step in you as a leader taking the step signals to other people that you work with, that work for you, that are in your social circle, that this is an opinion that's valuable and just to not choke it off. It's important. And thank you.
Shervin Talieh:
Thank you. And before I properly thank you, just with my last question, and you've been very generous with your time. We talked earlier about Telepath and we've touched a little bit about the Bay Area and the bubble and all of that. I think I have been correctly accused of at times feeling more woke than I actually am. Or sort of thinking I've made more progress than I've actually made. And I would love to get some very specific either examples or observations from you of what men who generally get their 65% to 75% of the way, what's the missing step? What is it that I don't really get about a woman's experience and what I need to do to make their lives a little bit easier?
Jennifer Lee:
I mean, we're trying to have you aim for self-actualization on Maslow's hierarchy of needs. This is what's important. You realize that you've been contributing to this and you've been holding women back whether consciously or unconsciously. So listening is the first step to that acknowledgement. And again, I thank you. But for women, it's that first base need, right? I think most men don't understand how women are always... We're always planning for safety. That is on the first... Food, shelter, clothing, the first step on the hierarchy of needs, you guys are at the top trying to be self-actualized, realizing what it is that you need to contribute.
Jennifer Lee:
But there's not a minute that goes by where women don't think about being safe or staying safe. And when you become a mother, this is exponential. When you become a parent, you're more aware because you're worried about your kids. But when you're a mother, this worry is exponential. So it goes from a daily thing like exercise where you shouldn't run outside when it's dark. So that means you've got to run between 7:00 AM and maybe 6:00 PM. You don't want to run at night because it could be dangerous. I'm not saying every danger is lurking around the corner. But if you have a traditional job, that limits your hours of what you can do, what exercise you can get done in a day because you don't want to just do it on the weekends. Traveling, getting to and from an airport regardless of if it's business or pleasure in a cab or a rideshare, you're with a total stranger, right?
Jennifer Lee:
Most women, they call their rideshare and they come to their house and women don't take those things for granted. A lot of times, we give an address that's different. We want to be dropped off at the corner. We're making a lot of safety calculations every day, not only... I was going to say every minute of every day. It's not that. If you're safe at home, that's great. So COVID has worked out for keeping safe, but in terms of operating outside of your home in your comfort zone, for women, it's much more of a base function than what you guys have to think about on a daily basis. And I think if you realized or a lot of men realize that, "Look, we're trying to get from the bottom of that pyramid and work our way up. And you guys are all ready at the pinnacle and you're looking for Buddhist enlightenment." There's a lot of steps in between that we need to close that gap.
Shervin Talieh:
Sounds like the definition of privilege.
Jennifer Lee:
Privilege, luck. Yeah, all of that. And structured. Yeah, patriarchy. Yeah, it is. And it's unfortunate, but pull out the ladder. Let us climb a little.
Shervin Talieh:
Jennifer, thank you for answering my questions and for teaching me. And I'm really grateful for your time.
Jennifer Lee:
Shervin, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to spout a little and thank you for listening. I think it's a really important conversation for men to have, for men with daughters and sons to have. And we need to move the dial. So we'll get working.
Shervin Talieh:
Excellent. Thank you so much.
Jennifer Lee:
Thank you. Bye.