Kanchan Prinsloo
About My Guest
Kanchan is committed to Women of Culture™ leading powerfully. As a professional executive coach, facilitator and speaker, the diversity impact is with both culturally diverse leaders and women leaders. Her work draws on over 25 years of organizational leadership experience, and 7 years of executive coaching experience in three countries.
Her coaching strengths are using her innate curiosity and ability to build trust to ask bold questions of her clients through a strengths- based approach. Kanchan’s coaching philosophy is ‘In order for personal and organizational change to happen, awareness needs to precede action.’ In addition to coaching, Kanchan has facilitated communication and leadership development programs globally with multinational organizations.
Kanchan also has 10 year plus volunteer board work in UK and Canada with organizations empowering women and children in India. And volunteers her time with The Humanitarian Coaching Network, supporting global frontline leaders with the United Nations and One Acre Fund.
Shervin Talieh (00:07):
This is On Misogyny, a conversation series exploring sexism and misogyny. Like many men, I have a blind spot when it comes to the female experience, especially as it pertains to the systemic hostility, prejudice and violence they face on a regular basis, and this has resulted in me believing that I was a better ally than I actually was and not fully appreciating how little it changed for women and just how much more needed to happen. In each episode, I speak with a guest who wants to help me learn. They share their stories and, in doing so, they're teaching me. While I started this project as a personal quest, the lessons here can help others too. Pleading ignorance is no longer a satisfactory defense. With that, let's begin.
Hello again, this is Shervin, and I'm excited to have this conversation this morning. I'd like to get started by having you please introduce yourself.
Kanchan Prinsloo (01:13):
Thank you, Shervin. My name is Kanchan Prinsloo. I am currently based in Toronto, Canada. My life's journey started in India, moved to Saskatchewan at a young age of three with our family, raised my children in Calgary, Alberta. So I have been Canadian-based for over 50 years. Our adult children are here in Toronto with us. We've also had the opportunity to live in the UK and other places, but right now we are based in Toronto with my work and focus, commitment being to women of color, leaders, women of culture. Not all of the women I work with see themselves as being of color even though they may have deep cultural influences and values that shape them. That's a little bit about me and I'm excited to be here with you.
Shervin Talieh (02:17):
Thank you. Could you elaborate a little bit more about the work that you do? And I don't know that I've heard that term, women of culture, before. Maybe you can tell me a little bit about that as well.
Kanchan Prinsloo (02:32):
Absolutely. It's not a term that's used; it's one that I've coined, quite frankly. What I found is my focus as an executive coach leadership development has been with women of color and a colleague of mine that is Armenian basically said, "I don't view myself as a woman of color and yet you and I are aligned in a lot of what we say and what our upbringing is." So therefore I started to really sort of, and it's just quite fresh in terms of using the term women of culture and that stems from different value system. Everyone has a culture. What I mean by different, their is cultural influences that really shape how we show up in the world and the work we do.
Some of those, for example, for myself, I remember vividly as a young girl being reminded by my mother that I talked too much. As I got older and she would say that, she goes, "Oh, you talk too much," and it's a phrasing. It was a quick off her tongue and I remember saying to her at one point, going, "Mom, it's called an opinion," and just leaving it at that. So from a cultural perspective, both my colleague and I when we were talking just not that long ago, she's had the exact same experience and it has nothing to do with being of color, but it's definitely being of culture.
Shervin Talieh (04:08):
Thank you. I could see that term taking on its own life form. It's, as you described it, it felt almost like it made sense, like it was natural. So if I do end up using it, everyone will know where the attribution lies here. Why did you agree to have this conversation with me?
Kanchan Prinsloo (04:34):
This conversation is just so important and I so wholeheartedly applaud your approach at it, which is to have the conversations with women and their experiences. It's important because it is pervasive, especially in my own lived experience of being in leadership positions for 26 years in healthcare, and in the last seven years working as an executive coach supporting leaders. Again, right now at a very, very focused space of women of culture, it's so important to have the conversations to bring light to them, to as well potentially have one person say something that connects with you so you can look at possibly, or as you hear, look at the situation just slightly different so we can bring a certain degree of equity for women in. Again, from my lens, it's from a workspace.
Shervin Talieh (05:41):
So you mentioned the memory of your mom in reference to you talking too much. What are some of your earliest memories of sexism and misogyny?
Kanchan Prinsloo (05:53):
A lot of it came from just culturally, "Don't worry about going out and cutting the grass. Why don't you stay indoors with me and your brother can do that?" and even though I so desperately wanted to be outdoors. Something as simple as being told, "Why don't you make your brother's beds?" What people call pink and blue roles, and it's done in a way of my parents knew and they would guide us with what they knew. In that guidance, I just didn't have choice. I was given direction to do what I needed to do. I was grateful my father was a science and physics, chemistry teacher, and so really pushed, which is the flip side of it. Really pushed me to take those subjects in class and not the home economics and the typing and the whatever. I'm really showing my age here.
But it was, again, through his lens, what he saw was important. He turned around and, and said, "Oh, okay, yeah, no, of course, you can do this. Everyone should have this knowledge." But I would say early on it was just in terms of what my role was in the home versus what my brother's roles were. It's so embedded. It's so within the culture that it can get confused. The lines get grayed, and it's just, "Oh, no, this is just who we are. This is how we do things. It serves us well," and where is it not serving us, asking those questions. Where is it not helping? What is it not doing for women? And what are the options that are available today that we're not looking at?
Shervin Talieh (07:45):
Just before we move on, I'm curious, your parents having moved to Canada and being immersed in a different culture with a different set of values and norms, misogynistic in its own way, but different. Did they ever come to a realization that maybe some of their norms or practices were not ideal?
Kanchan Prinsloo (08:11):
That's a fantastic question and I'll answer it as an adult looking at my parents and what they did. The risk they took to come to Canada, I mean, well-educated, there was no war. There was nothing negative in terms of their desire to move here. It was positive. It was by choice. They almost exasperated their tolerance for risk by doing that, because after that they really started to be risk-adverse, interestingly enough. So how that showed up as a family, I would say, in some respects, they actually tried to hang onto their culture a little bit more.
So I would see aspects of our culture much more embedded in us today than, say, cousins in India would have. It's much more ingrained and, yes, they definitely looked at some of the ways that they did things and shifted them in a way because of what was possible here, what they saw was possible here. But I would still err more on the side of they became much more traditional. Now, I say that, both my brothers and I have married people outside of being Indian so all of us are very much embedded in the Canadian society in a different way than maybe possibly my parents had thought when they first moved here.
Shervin Talieh (09:45):
As an Iranian, having lived in the United States for almost all of my life, so what you're saying is just so relatable and I see that in diaspora, there's almost this notion of like hanging on to what you know and doubling down on it. It doesn't make sense when you look at it from the outside, but I think when you explore it, it is around identity and belonging. So I appreciate you sharing that.
One of the areas that I really wanted to dig into was the fact that you moved into the professional world for almost 30 years and you coming out of that. You decided to become an executive coach, and I would like to understand what experiences you had in your professional life that wanted you to focus on helping women, and specifically also to have this conversation with me today. I'm guessing that there was a lot that you've seen and experienced.
Kanchan Prinsloo (10:58):
Yes. So in my professional career, I would say actually from a young age, I've always had the awareness to the impact, the separate, because of culture, girls being treated differently than boys and just rubbing up against that . From a professional space, healthcare predominantly from the frontline end is, if you were to look at gender, is female-based. Healthcare workers, direct nurses predominantly is female-based. The minute I got into from a leadership perspective and I got into management at the age of 26. I was a registered nurse for about a year-and-a-half, and then I started getting into management positions, and the higher up in the organization I went, the very much stronger male-dominated spaces I was in and that was always interesting to me.
As I was going into those positions, I got recognized. I did good work. I was tapped to move up into different positions, and a lot of that is because I started taking on the lens of, how do I drive results? What do I need to do to, and really taking on, I would say, mannerisms, approaches that were getting further and further away from who I was at the core. So when I would go into the positions, I knew very quickly I would have comments. I was quite young in leadership and I would start hearing these giggles about, "Oh, I wonder who you had to get in with to, wink, wink, to get the roles that you've got." The microaggressions throughout conversations and meetings, how do I speak up? How am I being heard? What do I need to do? What do I need to take on? Part of it was I definitely got louder. I definitely got much more opinionated, if you will. What I mean by that is I wanted to be sure that I was heard. That's where the phrasing when my mother with ... I was primed for this because I knew immediately that this was important for me to share my opinions and not let them pass by.
So, for me, a lot of it came up with tapping down, "Is this too emotional?" Like, "If I go into this meeting, how am I going to behave and so I can be heard and seen?" So I would say a few of the scenarios for me were all around working in a much more male-dominated space and leadership, in senior leadership positions, and making sure that I could ... well, fit in is one of them, I guess. Yeah, I would say fit in is one of the key things.
Shervin Talieh (13:58):
The microaggressions that you were experiencing, was some of that at the hands of other women?
Kanchan Prinsloo (14:04):
It was. There's an awful saying that I used to hear when I was a nurse and it was the saying around nurses, we will sell our youngs ... no, we will eat our young and sell our mothers. I just thought, "Oh my gosh," and people would laugh at that and I thought, "Oh, that's just awful. Like, what an awful thing to say." Part of it came from the competitiveness that would happen amongst women to be positioned and however it was. So it came from this, so we feted ourselves is what I mean to say by it. It was all said within; from a nurse nursing space, it was all said from within, for sure.
Shervin Talieh (14:54):
So I think it's fair to say that 90 plus percent of the work is being done by women and 90 plus percent of the leadership is men, and I'm going to assume white men. Is that a fair sort of ballpark-ish?
Kanchan Prinsloo (15:11):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Shervin Talieh (15:11):
Okay. As I have come to understand this, systemic misogyny almost requires, at some level, for women to brutalize other women too, because the idea of women being safe across the board is a threat to the patriarchy.
Kanchan Prinsloo (15:37):
Absolutely. We reinforce the patriarchy ourselves. Absolutely.
Shervin Talieh (15:41):
So you're there at 26; you're one of the youngest managers there. You go through this experience where your peers are now acting out against you and you're also dealing with men in business. Why don't you tell me what that was like? Can you share a story or two in terms of like what it's like to be a woman in the workspace? I ask this question for my own benefit, because I think I understand obvious forms of sexism and misogyny. What I'm less aware of are the hidden constructs, the things that I just don't see. Can you speak to any of that?
Kanchan Prinsloo (16:39):
Absolutely. I'll give you an example. I was at a meeting and at this point I'm early 30s. I'm at a meeting. People know me. People know me in the leadership space, and my skirt rose up just a little bit, which I hadn't known until another woman taps me on the side and tells me to just maybe tug it down a bit and I just looked at her and I laughed. And then she glanced over and she said, "You're a distraction. It's a distraction," and I started to laugh again, and she goes, "No, sadly, it's a distraction. Take a look at," and she pointed out to three men that were looking and giggling, like laughing.
Now, I don't know what they were laughing about. She obviously knew the context better than I did, and I remember at that point feeling shame. Shame because she had to point it out, what did I miss. Shame for not having a certain ... My entire life is about a certain degree of professionalism, that, that was even going to come in. So, that, I internalized fairly quickly. After that, honestly, depending on the meeting I was going to go to, I was just aware of it because it's like, "I'm never having that happen again," and that's what shame does. You internalize it so much that it ends up shaping in how you do things.
I remember another situation where I had a colleague of mine. He would come up to me and he had a sarcastic tone. Now, I also can hold that same sarcasm so I can do the banter back and forth. First of all, sarcasm does never serves anybody. At the same token, I thought, "No, I got this. I'm going to do this and I can be just as quick." Then it turns from being sarcasm to playfulness, and every time we talk, it's like, "Yes, it's this, it's this," to all of a sudden turning into a flirtation. It, all of a sudden, went, "Okay, now we've crossed a line. What just happened here?" For me, my first reaction was to go silent and think about, "Did I just see that?" and then all of a sudden realizing that, "Yeah, and where else has that been showing up and that I haven't been seeing it with this same colleague, this one very specific colleague?"
The only way that I was able to handle it at that point, and it speaks more to me at that young age, was to be able to go back to it in a very sarcastic, cutting drop just like there is no way you're crossing this line kind of a setup. But I remember thinking, "Wow, like sarcasm is all around me." Like, man, everyone is just back and forth, but the minute it crosses over or into flirtation, or that is something that I have to deal with as a woman that others would not. Men would not. Then all of a sudden what happens is I start to build up my little brick wall, one brick at a time, anytime little things like this happen.
Those are just subtle ways of how I would operate. The last one that I would say is not seeing a lot of women around me. So when I would come into a meeting, there was just this hidden expectation that, you know what, as everyone else leaned back in the chairs, and I'm a note-taker, I process through writing, putting pen to paper, and that, yeah. "Oh, so you got that, right? Carlson, you got that? You've got the notes on that? Could you just fire that around to us? Just what do you think the high levels are?" and it might even be a flippant, "You don't need to ... we don't even need full notes, but just high level, what was the takeaways?"
At that point, again, there was a degree of, "All right," to a degree of, "What? Why am I ...?" So I stopped taking my notebook in. I just thought, now, I could use Otter or something, but back then it was like, I just thought, "I'm not taking my notebook in. There's no way I can," because I'm going to be doing it. So I didn't feel strong enough to call it out, I just changed what I did with it.
Shervin Talieh (21:27):
This is really great and I'd like to unpack a few things that I heard here. Let's go back to that room with the men snickering. What would you say to them, if you could, today?
Kanchan Prinsloo (21:42):
I think the first thing that I would ask is just, "What's funny? Did I miss the joke?" Because part of me wants to be sure that it is what I think it is, so I would want to, first of all, say, "Oh, I missed something. I missed the joke." I can almost hear it play out in my own head, which is, "Oh, yeah, no, it's nothing. It's nothing." At that point, the piece that comes up for me right now as you're asking me the question is to say something like, "I hope you guys aren't getting ..." something about, "I hope it's nothing to do with my dress or my skirt, or," but basically identifying that "I hope it's not X," because if it is then you've really missed the boat on how we are all colleagues.
I think the first thing that comes up is get clarity, and then right after that, even if, because most likely most people don't answer back if you ask them directly, is to just make sure that whatever's in my head, I get out. "I hope it's not X because of Y." It's the only way that I could handle it right now.
Shervin Talieh (22:56):
You have tremendous grace, I could learn from you. So then you used the word shame. So this experience-
Kanchan Prinsloo (23:07):
So, actually, I'm just going to stop for one second.
Shervin Talieh (23:07):
Please.
Kanchan Prinsloo (23:09):
I appreciate the word around grace. One of the things that I have found in all the years that I've worked in leadership as a woman, I have always had to navigate how I am able to communicate so someone else can hear me. So what I may want to say in whatever profanity-laced way that I want to will not serve me and they will not hear me. So I appreciate that you call it grace; I call it survival. What is it that I can say that they can hear me? How do I approach this that they can hear me? That's the way I look at it.
Shervin Talieh (23:46):
Okay. Well, now, this is very illuminating. So one of our advisors and my first guest, Shefaly, she talked about how misogyny was just it's in the air that we breathe. It's all around us, right? Then she connected that to this idea of like her physical safety and the cost of it, how certain times of the year she wouldn't be able to take the Metro. She'd have to take an Uber just because it gets dark and whatnot. This is almost like a tax that is imposed on women, right? Hearing you describe what you just said, you said that this was less about grace and more about survival. That too feels like attacks that you have extra processing that you have to do. You have to carry this additional set of tools and resources to navigate your way through the professional world. Is that somewhat accurate?
Kanchan Prinsloo (24:54):
Absolutely. I remember talking to a leader when I was working in the UK in London and she said, in the '50s, her mother had told ... in the 1950s, her mother had said to her when she first went out to work, she goes, "Always walk with your back against the wall," and she said, "Why?" She goes, "Because you never want to give anyone an opportunity to touch you." But to her mother, it was just, "Oh, that's what you do. You walk with your back against the wall. You walk into a room, you walk with your back against the wall." This is in the 1950s in London to this white colleague of mine. I remember so, yeah, whether it's survival, whether it's just ... it's in the air that you breathe. It's what you know. It's the lens you look through. This is, "I'm always going to be looking out for my safety."
Here's here's a flip side of it. I was talking to these wonderful leaders in Islam, in Mumbai, and the biggest risk is safety as a woman to go to the bathroom. How, where, just the simple act of ... and I realize I'm going a little bit off point here, but it's still a whole piece around just the basic, basic survival pieces. Whether you want to be in the day-to-day in Islam in Mumbai or whether you are in corporate downtown, Toronto, going, "What are the things I need to be aware of and what are the tools I need to ... What's my awareness? What am I looking through? What am I looking at every single day when I walk in? When someone looks at me a different way, what does that look mean?" whereas it's just, "Ah, I've got enough bandwidth to go, "Ah, it's just a look. Anyways, I'm going to keep going over here." It's like, "Oh, okay, that's a third time that person has looked at me that way." I'm not sure what that means, but it's enough of a flag for me to be paying attention to it. Does that make sense?
Shervin Talieh (26:52):
It does and, sadly, it's consistent with a lot of what I've heard, especially from women that have had more experience, have had more time, unfortunately, to see these things and to be victims of them, really. You used the word shame and the way that you described what happened, it was almost like I could visualize you in that room and your shame felt almost physical to me. It felt as though what that shame really was, and I would love your help to tell me if I'm seeing this correctly or not, it's the transference of this misogyny and this act and this energy, this objectification of women, that women are here to amuse us, to pleasure us, to make us laugh or whatever, from the men in the room to you. It doesn't end with that incident ending. Now, you are holding onto this thing and because of it, you have to now think about what you're wearing, where you're seated, almost suspicious of how other people are reacting, could it also be because of something that's going on? Is this somewhat accurate what I'm describing?
Kanchan Prinsloo (28:38):
Absolutely. It's embodied. That experience is one. I've had a couple more where it ... I mean, shame grows in darkness. I didn't speak about it. What I did is I looked at, "Well, I don't want that to happen again." Up to and including today at the age of 55, I have a 29-year-old daughter, but at the age of 55 in the last year and be it COVID, be it whatever, in the last year, I've always kept a certain, "I have a professional ..." up to my children, my two kids, my two adult children saying to me, "I always know when business mom is here," and it'd be like, "Right. I carry these two people. They know me in a certain way at home, but they also know when my business voice, my look, my hair, everything else."
So this past year, I've even started to go, "Okay, I can be more of me." So something as simple as not flat ironing my hair, using product, and that's still professional. But if you take it back to that incident in the room, I am very aware of, "I don't want my clothes, I don't want my reputation, I don't want how I show up to be a distraction from what I can contribute to these meetings, to this work, to anything." So I continue to embo- ... like, so, yeah, I would never wear a skirt that could raise up above my knee. It's like, "No, I don't need that. Don't want that." It's bizarre now. I mean, I've got years and years of experience behind me now, but it's to the point where, just this past year, I was laughing at it and I'm like, "Wow, like I have really ... I'm actually starting to meld my two worlds much better." Every day is a little bit better and it's still going to be better next year. Like, there'll be something else I've uncovered.
Shervin Talieh (30:46):
That's inspiring. It seems like there's more conversions and the authenticity, not that the other one was inauthentic, but that extra energy, it sounds like, that you had to apply to this other persona, maybe that's dissipating in some way . Before we move on to the next topic, you mentioned representation and sarcasm. Sarcasm, maybe we'll start with that. Thinking about my own behavior, I'm 53 and I've seen this in others and I know this of myself, especially the younger version of me, sarcasm oftentimes is a thinly veiled misdirect, if you will, for something else, and there is almost an expectation, there was, at least professionally, and I come from the corporate world, that flirtation and beyond flirtation, this idea that men are just entitled to comment and then to say, "Well, that was just a compliment," or to be even much more aggressive, if you will. But sarcasm is a really poor attempt at masking some of that. Is that a fair view of this?
Kanchan Prinsloo (32:30):
Yes, I would say that, that is a very fair view of it and I learned to use it instead of being direct. I would use it as a safe in my own opinion. It definitely wasn't safe, but it was a safe way for me to say what I needed to say and always have a little bit of a laugh or a smile and it's like, "Okay, I've gotten to say what I needed to say in a way that possibly could be heard," and it was not since it's a misdirect. That's exactly on point.
Shervin Talieh (33:10):
So the story of you taking notes for yourself and on more than one occasion a male colleague saying, "Share those notes," or "Tell us what we missed," or something like that. That one really hit home for me because my partner shared a similar story with me and she was at a large biotech company and was always taking notes for her own purposes and something very similar happened to her. So she decided she's never going to bring a notebook or laptop or whatever to a meeting. In fact, she would take it one step further and she shares a story with young or newer managers, and female managers specifically. But she shares it with men as well.
Here's my question: obviously, the goal is for men ... I mean, we don't want a victim blame and it's not up to the victims to solve the problem. Okay, let's just start there. So this needs to change. What is the most effective way to create that change? How do we, and I guess, how do you guide the women that you work with in your executive coaching to navigate whatever environment that they're going through in a way that will create some sustainable change for them?
Kanchan Prinsloo (34:57):
That's a fantastic question. It's the one I live in day in and day out. As you and I both know we have to lead ourselves before we can lead others. So the first space that comes in is we stay where our hands are, which is around us. What's our story about the circumstances that are happening? That's important to really unpack that, to get clear on, and I usually, when I do, especially with the one-on-one coaching, I really encourage what's happening right now. What's something that's just happened that we can unpack and something that's going ahead? Because I want it to be very real.
So it's uncovering our own narrative around this, my narrative around, "Right, what did more professional look like so no one would laugh at me; that no one would get, whatever, turned on or whatever the joke that I could be the end of." It was like, "No." It's like, "Okay, well, let's ..." If I could have someone to talk to about that, I wouldn't have lived in shame. I could have, at least, unpacked that a bit. So first and foremost, it's us. It's asking ourselves the question and, most importantly, following it up with a change of some action. We're sitting in the question and the thinking is only going to get us so far. It's important and the next piece of it is let's take a small step to change that action and let's figure out how was that step. So that's the one piece.
As a leader, and a lot of the women that I work with, it's really important to manage up, manage sideways. Part of that is getting in some small way inquisitive about who the person is, if it's our boss, if it's our colleague and posing questions because one of the things is, is that there's an underpinning of humanity here. That if we come from a space of, "There is a possibility of goodwill, that there is a chance that ... Let's give them the benefit for the doubt until anything is known." That's why it's important to start with us first, because we've got so many layers to that, and then we've got enough space to be able to pose questions and come from a place of curiosity. Curiosity at that point can then, hopefully, that the ideal is to build a strong enough relationship where we can start having those deeper conversations. Those are conversations or dialogues that are far from using sarcasm because that's not going to work. It's a short-term. "Yeah, I felt good. I said what I needed to say. Now, I can go away," but it's not a long-term sustainable impact.
So I would say those are the two things that, when I work with women of color, women of culture, it is these two spaces that I really, who are you as the leader and what is it that you can do to better understand where the other person's coming from so you can communicate in a way that helps them be able to hear what you have to say?
Shervin Talieh (38:24):
That's very powerful. I'd like to conclude with being on the receiving end of your coaching. If you could indulge me with this, I would be grateful. As the CEO of a company, what are the two, three things that I should be doing to create a much better environment for women, but also keeping in mind that there's intersectionality with a lot of the stuff. If we can help women, we can help other groups as well. But let's start with this lens.
Kanchan Prinsloo (39:05):
So the first thing I would say as CEO, in the same way that I speak to women of color and culture, is really educate yourself. Get as much information that you can in terms of understanding what are some of the challenges that you will possibly never even have imagined is happening, so educate yourself. The second key thing is what you know what you learned as a leader sharing and making sure that you are speaking from that space of education or curiosity continuously, words and actions have to match. We won't believe anyone that says one thing and does another. We can smell insincerity a mile away, every one of us. So having education and then acting from that space.
Now, on a very practical level, the one thing that I ask every CEO is to 110% look at your hiring practices. How are we getting women in? How are we keeping them in the roles? So one is opening the door. The other one is, what are we doing to give support to women leaders in your organization? So when we do an interview, how are we asking the questions that are going to be inclusive of all of their life, asking questions that are a lot more broad-minded.
Then, second of all, knowing that when I'm in this interview, that the resources this woman may need may not be the traditional resources that we think everyone in leadership needs. So it may not be what's the best way to communicate, what's the networking, branding, all those things. This person's resources may be quite different and really tapping into, "Oh, right, what you actually need right now, or having the dialogue, is maybe something around voice. Something as simple as a voice coach is what you need. You're very fantastic at networking." So when we look at hiring, bringing someone in the door, and how do you keep them within the organization, it is that real strong support knowing that it will most likely look quite different than how you traditionally have done it.
Shervin Talieh (41:35):
Kanchan, that is such a clear set of directives to me and to anyone listening that even a guy like me can practically put that to use and to make it happen. I'm so grateful for your time, your wisdom, and for the conversation, Kanchan. Thank you so much.
Kanchan Prinsloo (42:01):
Thank you very much, and I am so grateful that you are having these conversations. So happy to be a part of them. Thank you.