Shervin Talieh
About My Guest
Shervin is the founder/CEO of PartnerHero, and prior to that spent much of his career in management consulting and doing two other start-ups. The burnout from consulting and time spent in the echo-chambers of Silicon Valley chasing validation led him to his version of rock bottom. The On Misogyny project was born out of feedback he received from his partner, whereby she informed him that he wasn't as "woke" as he thought he was.
Shervin Talieh (00:07):
This is On Misogyny, a conversation series exploring sexism and misogyny. Like many men, I have a blind spot when it comes to the female experience, especially as it pertains to the systemic hostility, prejudice and violence they face on a regular basis. And this has resulted in me believing that I was a better ally than I actually was and not fully appreciating how little it changed for women and just how much more needed to happen. In each episode, I speak with a guest who wants to help me learn. They share their stories and in doing so, they're teaching me. While I started this project as a personal quest, the lessons here can help others too. Pleading ignorance is no longer a satisfactory defense. With that, let's begin.
Max Velasco Knott (00:58):
Hi Shervin. How's it going?
Shervin Talieh (01:01):
Hello Max, it's going well. It's a lovely Friday afternoon.
Max Velasco Knott (01:07):
It is. Well, it's lovely here. I'm in California and I know you're in Idaho or Hawaii?
Shervin Talieh (01:14):
No, in Boise, just in Idaho.
Max Velasco Knott (01:19):
Great. Well, I know you and I have been in contact for some time and we're working on this project together and I've been going through the catalog of conversations and interviews that you've had and there's a lot of things that we haven't talked about and I was pretty excited to save for this conversation here today. So I know you have had about a dozen conversations with women thus far on this podcast and to kind of take things in a bit of a different direction and further explore this concept of misogyny and all the different ways that it perpetuates in society and everybody who lives in it, I'm really excited to talk to you and your journey through both this work and in your life and some of the things that you've learned over the past several months. So maybe to begin and I know this might be a little strange because you always ask this question of others but can you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about who you are?
Shervin Talieh (02:24):
Sure. And it is kind of surreal to have the tables turned on me like this. My name is Shervin and I am a 53 year old Iranian American male. My ethnicity is Iranian. My parents were both Iranian but I've lived in the United States for a long, long time. And I moved to Boise about three years ago from the Bay Area. I'd lived in California for 25 plus years. And for work, I currently run a company out of Boise, a global company. And prior to that, I'd done another startup and had been in management consulting for a long time. So that's sort of my short bio. And I think relevant to this topic, I think there's several things about me that are really informing my lack of understanding around misogyny and the areas of opportunity and growth for me personally.
One is the fact that I've lived in different parts of the world and also in different parts of the United States and the fact that I'm straight and the fact that I am 53 because what I am learning is that each of those elements of my identity bring its own set of baggage or conventions, however you want to frame them and I'm slowly working my way through that. And I should also say I have four children, three sons and one daughter and a couple of dogs.
Max Velasco Knott (04:41):
That's great. Thank you. And I think you touched on a lot of areas that I have some questions around and hopefully can explore with you today. And maybe what makes sense is to kind of draw this path of yours out chronologically. And so I'd love to start with maybe some thoughts you might have about what you learned about masculinity and femininity growing up and maybe who taught you that or what parts of culture society taught you.
Shervin Talieh (05:11):
That's a really interesting question. I'll share a memory with you from when I was living in New York as a child and I remember one day at school, this is Rye Country Day School in Connecticut. We lived in New York but just across the border. And we were at school and I was in the second grade and there was this boy who had a white shirt on and it was a button down shirt. It was the shirt that adults would wear but that's what he wore and I remember this vividly. And he had something spill on it and it was red or pinkish colored and his reaction to that was he really loved that shirt and he was crying. And I remember hearing someone say to him, "Boys don't cry." It was 40 something years ago. And I remember this very vividly.
And I also remember the first time I ever saw my father cry was when we got a phone call that his other had passed away. And as I'm connecting these thoughts for you, as I'm sort of thinking about it, I learned from a lack of conversation. I learned from these, like I say, conventions or protocols that were observed and sometimes reinforced with blunt force objects. And they were very much informed early on by this very strange sort of chasm between my father and my mother. My mother was the first feminist I ever met. And when we were very young, she took us to Central Park and there was a NOW protest going on. And that was my introduction to feminism. And my father, who grew up in a very traditional Iranian household himself, was not fully on board with the NOW movement. And he was the one who would tell me to suck it up not to express myself, et cetera.
So I think I got some mixed messages but it was through teachers and through the media and through watching other kids interact and seeing what those expectations were and how they'd be set and how our identities are shaped. And I'm so grateful that, that's not the way that I have at least tried to comport myself and my own involvement with my children because I've seen it's not enough to not say something. I think this is an area that if you don't say something, there are enough negative influences out there that could really lead a child to go down a path of assuming sort of the more toxic side of some of these stereotypical gender attributes.
Max Velasco Knott (08:58):
I think that's very detailed and I really appreciate that memory that you recalled. I think a lot of men and people in general have far reaching memories of when some of these definitions and societal expectations come up. And I really appreciate that point of not having explicit modeling around the concepts of masculinity or femininity really creates kind of a void that gets filled in by so much of the unspoken and unexplicit modeling that society kind of layers on everyone. One of the questions you ask in your other conversations is, "What is your earliest memory of sexism or misogyny?" And I'd like to know what your answer is to that and what your earliest memories are of kind of the power dynamic that society generally benefits, maleness over women in society.
Shervin Talieh (10:04):
Boy, I've some disturbing memories. One of them was when I was 10 or 11, we had moved to Iran from New York and just as the revolution in Iran was happening. This is around 1978, '79. And we lived in a five story building. There were three apartments on each floor and uncle and his wife and their daughter lived in the unit just across the hall from us. And one night I was sleeping, I was 10 or 11 and I just heard this screaming and crying and whatnot. And I woke up and I went outside in the living room and I could see that my parents had opened the door and my uncle's wife was desperately trying to get into our house. My uncle was drunk and he'd been beating his wife. I'd never seen anything like that.
I didn't understand what fear was but I saw it in her and I immediately absorbed the seriousness of her situation. And what made matters worse was that the conversations over the next few days after that didn't happen as though nothing ever happened. And when I once brought it up, his behavior was sort of rationalized because he was running a construction company and there was stress and there was whatever, almost as though he was the victim. Unfortunately, that was not the last violent encounter that I saw between a man and a woman. I saw that in Iran a few times, just out on the streets, again, as a child. And I've also known women that are very close to me, that have been raped.
And I did not, at the time when I learned that they had been raped, did not make a connection between that and misogyny. My immediate reaction upon hearing that my sister had been raped was disbelief and then anger and number of other reactions. But in no place, did I connect what had happened to her to an experience that far too many women have had to go through. And that is in fact, never going to get better until all men recognize the fear that women live in. I thought of this as a one off situation and one terrible human being preying upon my sister. I didn't realize that this is actually a manifestation, an outcome of systemic misogyny.
Max Velasco Knott (14:00):
I really appreciate you sharing those things and that courage it takes to revisit that and how you've connected those dots to what you've been learning and identifying and examining recently. And I'm sorry that you've had to go through that trauma and your family had to go through that trauma. As your journey has continued and especially with the focus that you've put on this work over the past year, what are some things that you wish that you learned or realized earlier in life, whether it be some of that connecting dots that you kind of spoke or just even concepts that maybe didn't connect for you until recently?
Shervin Talieh (14:54):
I put the learnings into a few different broad categories. The first category that has caused a lot of reflection and frankly some shame for me has been my relationships, especially when I was in my 20s. And initially, when I sort of did my first pass of taking inventory of my own life, thinking about consent as an example, my initial assessment was that I hadn't crossed a line there. But as I got more knowledge from the women whom I spoke with and from my own readings and other conversations that have not been published and from some people that are very close to me in my life, I did another assessment and that one was not as trouble free as I would want it to be. And so, as I think about that, I think about power dynamics. I think about what men say to get what they want, what would I have, I don't want to anonymize this, I'll just speak for myself, just how much control I could have to sort of create a certain environment if you will.
I would also say that the thing that I'm most embarrassed by is I did not have much regard for the feelings of these women that maybe I dated or met. And that callousness, I think, is core to misogyny. The ability to almost detach the action from the impact or the feelings or almost a dehumanization, if you will, I think is one of the things that stands out to me upon my own reflection. It really stands out when I talk to my oldest son who's 20 and the way he thinks about dating and consent and it's just so evolved so different. And that's a deep regret that I have. I wish I could do it all over again. The second area of learning has to do with the professional environment and work. And if you listen to some of the conversations, it's almost universal. I mean, all women suffer for some level, some degree of sexual harassment to quid pro quo, to assault, to, I mean, physical violence, all sorts of things.
And my initial assessment was, thankfully nothing bad had happened. As I take a deeper look at it, I don't think I was as strong of an ally as I could have been. I know I wasn't. Again, I'm 53. I wish when I was 33, I knew what I know now. Me not being the perpetrator does not mean that I don't have a hand in supporting that system knowingly or unknowingly. So that's the second category. And I think the third category is just around what I've come to learn is sort of, being a woman has a certain tax applied to it. And Shefaly sort of really said it best with saying, it's like the air, we breathe the oxygen. It's just always present. And she talked about how she would have to think about, during the winters in London, it gets darker sooner, maybe she can't take the Metro. She has to take an Uber. It's actually physically more expensive for her to be a woman. Just consistently I hear women talk about different mental cycles or physical cycles or economic cycles and sort of this burden that's associated with them just staying alive, frankly.
And I honestly did not know that. I just thought maybe they're bad neighborhoods or there are bad people but this happens everywhere. I mean all the time. So that's another area that it was a profound awakening for me to think about that. And I'll just sort of end this on this point, men of my generation were sort of told, you open the door and so you walk behind women and that sort of thing. I don't do that anymore. I mean, I may open the door but I realize that most men, when they walk behind women, the intentions are not to protect them. It's to size them up or something. So there are these just, I know that this may sound trivial in the grand scheme of things, Max, but you can't help but think about everything that you are doing. And for everything that I've learned, there are 100 things that I don't know yet about my own behaviors, my own participation in knowingly or unknowingly supporting this system. So I don't want to make it sound like I've learned everything, I think this is just simply the beginning for me.
Max Velasco Knott (21:25):
Thank you for sharing that. And I'm glad you called out some of the conversation that you had with Shefaly. I believe in one of our recent conversations, she had pointed out this concept that misogyny affects everyone and I know we've so far talked about a lot of the ways that it's impacted women in society that you know or you interact with or in your family. And I'm curious if you have any realizations about how misogyny has impacted you and either your ability to be your fullest self or connect with others or be successful in the work that you will want to do. And has there been any realizations around that you've realized you've been held back by misogyny or haven't been able to do things because of it?
Shervin Talieh (22:20):
This is the area that I feel I have the most digging to do but I'll share with you what I am uncovering in just sort of the early stages of this exploration. I go back again to a memory post revolutionary Iran. I am 15 years old and I'm in the streets. I'm by the Caspian Sea, north of Iran and I am talking to a girl and I'm not related to this girl. I am doing what a 15 year old boy, it's not unusual, I'm talking to someone and out of nowhere, a SUV rolls up and these armed, in Farsi, we call it [foreign language 00:23:18] They're the sort of the militia. They jump out of this SUV with machine guns and they split us up and they interrogate us and they let her go. And they start to ask me questions about, "Are you related? And why are you talking to her?" As I'm explaining and trying to come up with some sort of story, the person that I was talking to swung his machine gun and knocked me out and hit me across the head with it.
It happened so quickly. I just heard a ringing sensation in my left ear. And they kind of laughed and they told me to get the hell out of here and never do that again. For years, I thought of that as a manifestation of a theocracy. That is misattribution. That was because of misogyny and I will explain why. The hatred for women, the being threatened by the existence of women, can show up in many different ways. One of the ways that it shows up is violence between men. And that would not be the last time that I was in a physical altercation that was in some ways tied to the presence of a woman. And I'm not saying that this is a woman's fault but I just sort of, the context of, is important here. In this particular case, there was no fighting back or anything. But this happened later on in my life as well and I would get into physical altercations, I'd be thrown out of places because someone was looking at the woman that I was with.
This is the essence of it or maybe they did something worse than that. And the way that I would rationalize it at the time was, this is, I'm protecting my honor or I'm protecting them in some way. That's all bullshit. It's actually not true. If you go many, many layers below that, it is this idea that women need men to tell them what their value is and women are objects that are to be fought for by men or whatever. And like I said, Max, I'm just now realizing this. And this is what misogyny does. And I honestly, up until a year ago, I did not know this. Shefaly is 100% right. As men, especially men of my generation, we were not told to be vulnerable. If anything, we were told to suppress our feelings, not ask for help. We were told that some feelings or some behaviors are "feminine" or some are masculine and that sort of thing.
And if you're not dealing with it or feeling it or communicating or expressing it, it does not go away. It will come out as rage. And invariably that rage will impact women directly or indirectly. Society is less safe for men and women and children and we don't talk about that enough because of misogyny.
Max Velasco Knott (27:06):
I really appreciate that example and kind of again, sharing these stories of your experiences growing up and kind of reflecting on them. Something that resonates with me from what you said is this idea that the journey of confronting misogyny isn't just appreciating it in society and understanding where it lives but also kind of reconciliation within ourselves. And I've been doing a lot of work in this area and something that resonates with me from what you said is that idea of violence and kind of ownership over women or women's bodies and maybe to make it more general of a theme or concept that I've seen within patriarchy and can't really unsee anymore and something that it kind of manifests in so many different ways from business to politics, to [inaudible 00:28:05] is this idea of hierarchy.
And perhaps maybe that can apply to what you described in terms of kind of that order of those assaulters confronting you and needing to put you in a place that wasn't as someone to interact with or exchange but someone who was able to be dominated by them and in that case violently. And I think that's something that I see in a lot of places, is just kind of that subjugation of hierarchy and needing to be "better" or above someone else. And I think that roots itself deeply into masculinity and patriarchy, the way that we see it kind of construct not only across society with women but also amongst men and between men.
Shervin Talieh (29:00):
100%. I've not done the work that you've done, so I think I could learn a lot from you and the conversations we've had. And you're right, once you see it, you can't unsee it. It's true. I mean, that's hopefully, right? Once you have that truth embedded in your psyche, hopefully you can question everything. And I should say it's easier for me now to be able to sort of connect some of these dots that I would not be able to connect before. And an example of that is, when we talk about body shaming, as an example or when we talk about what our notions of sort of the ideal mate would look like or how they would behave, et cetera, it's so scary when you think we, as men, sort of push a narrative around certain set of physical qualities that women should have.
And then we profit from the industries that promote and sell those services. And it's from surgeries to diet, to cosmetics, to the music videos, to whatever, clothing, et cetera. And there's a real difference between that and, again, you and I have talked about sort of the Fourth-wave, if you will, of feminism and the idea that actually women should run that show and it's not for us to have any say in whatsoever. And so this is why intentions are at the core of it. I think this has become a good learning for me is when I think about what are my intentions? Does the other person have power in this situation? Am I taking all the power? What other options do they have? Et cetera. It's a good way of understanding if what is being proposed or what is being discussed or what is being pursued is safe or if it somehow, again, even subconsciously even if it has vestiges of misogyny within it.
Max Velasco Knott (31:51):
I kind of want to follow this thread around seeing misogyny in the world with kind of these new filters you have from these recent conversations. And I'd love to talk a little bit about your identity as a parent and as a father. Are there things that you're doing differently now because of what you've explored? And I'm kind of curious if there are other fathers who listen to this conversation, what are some of the things that you think all fathers should know or begin thinking about differently that you've been able to examine within yourself over your journey?
Shervin Talieh (32:39):
Thank you for that question. First of all, if you're a father listening to this and you only have boys or a boy, this is still relevant to you. It's especially relevant to you. This is not a problem that women need to fix. This is our doing. And so back in the day, I thought the conversation was just about the birds and the bees and you talk about drugs and sex and booze and not driving, calling us, that sort of thing. Now we talk about not just consent and I don't know if you've seen this video the Consent Tea, you should YouTube it, really interesting way of sort of introducing that into a teenager's education. But it's more than that. It's about sort of, as a father, if my son comes back from a date and I say, "Did you score?" And I've actually heard people talk like that. That is the way you create a lack of safety and actual harm for women in society. There's a connection there. What we should be asking is, "How was your evening? What did you learn about this person? Did you have something in common?" Et cetera.
And if you have a daughter, I mean, young women, young girls today are amazing. My 18 year old daughter, I really love seeing how in control of her identity she is and how much agency she has. And again, here as men, as fathers, again, my generation, there's this thing that we would say or I'd hear this mentioned to other women, "Oh, why are you still single? Why aren't with someone?" That sort of thing. That's terrible. It's absolutely terrible. Or saying, "Hey, when are you going to have kids?" Or whatever. Again, that's just, it's not necessary. No, as a father, boy, there's such a better path for parenting but it starts with exploring yourself and thinking about a world that doesn't have that persistent tax on women. And also all the negative revocations has on men too and figuring out how we just do differently. It's different conversations. It's different rituals.
The books that we read are different. The games that we play are different. The music that we listen to together is different. And it should be. I mean, if we're evolved or if we think we're evolved or trying to evolve, we can't just fall back to these unfortunate relics of a system that is still all too prevalent.
Max Velasco Knott (36:27):
It's really inspiring to hear you talk about your kids and kind of the things that you observe in them. I don't have children myself, so I of find this really interesting to hear you speak to. And a question you made me think of is, what are some things that you've either been surprised by or learned from your kids in terms of the areas of sexism and misogyny or just kind of gender dynamics in general?
Shervin Talieh (36:59):
My oldest son, when he was about five or six, he would at times put on his sister's ballet tights and tutu and they would do these performances. And at times they would both put makeup on, et cetera. And I remember at one point and I remember this day almost like it was yesterday, that I was starting to get uncomfortable. And I sort of, after the performance, I somewhat rushed him to take a bath and take everything off. In high school during the summers, he would put nail polish on. And he still sometimes does. And now, not only am I not uncomfortable with it, I watch his younger brother, who's four and his mom put nail polish on one another. And they sometimes will put it on my hand or my toes or whatever. And he has his own pink dress, my four year old. My hang ups were taught to me. I was not born with those hang ups and so they can be untaught too. They can be unlearned.
And so my kids are doing that for me and they never even set out to teach me anything but they just are. And if I'm quiet, the other women in my life can teach me a lot too or I can learn a lot from them. As men, we are told to be the whatever, the strongest or the biggest or the whatever. And that is going to always prevent us. It'll prevent me from being humble and being open and being able to take in new information and reevaluate my own biases, which I'm not immune to perpetrating. Again, I still make mistakes all the time. And kids are amazing because they teach us without sitting us down for a lesson. It's somewhat organic and it's in the moment that it's playful. And maybe that's why I'm more receptive to learning from them is because it comes from a place of love and it's just who they are. And so I'm really grateful.
And I've not been a great dad in all cases and I've made lots of mistakes and somehow I still get to learn from them. And that's, hopefully, a proxy for society, that to do better doesn't mean, "Oh, this is up to the next generation." No, it literally means, "What do I do this afternoon or tomorrow? What are my expectations of myself, of my relationships with the women in my life, whether they're in my personal life or my professional life? What am I doing to try to remove that tax, that fear and lack of safety and having to jump up and down with one hand tied behind their backs?" I mean, that's the world that we've created for women.
Max Velasco Knott (40:41):
I really appreciate just kind of the wonder that you have for what you are learning and still have yet to learn from your kids. And thinking again about fathers who may listen to this conversation, is there any recommendations you want to give to fathers or perhaps if you don't have anything specific to share, are there things that you're still looking forward to learning or discovering?
Shervin Talieh (41:11):
To talk to women. Listen to them. I think we think of being a father as some version of do what my dad did but a little bit better. That's the kind of the implied role. And primary concern is their safety and their happiness. Again, I'll speak for myself. The more I talk to women, the more safe I make it for women to be able to share their stories with me. I think I can be a better dad. I honestly see a direct line there.
Max Velasco Knott (41:55):
One last topic I want to get into for the rest of our time is, hearing a little bit about your experience in the workplace and I'm really interested in understanding or learning a bit more about anything that you now see differently at work or do differently at work or in a professional capacity that has been part of this journey that you're on in having more conversations with women, listening to women and it sounds like just kind of exploring a new level of empathy for experiences other people are going through. And I'm curious how that resonates with you at work and maybe some things that you do differently now that you weren't doing before.
Shervin Talieh (42:45):
Yes. And I want to be very specific and to the point on this. I understand with my position of authority, that before there's even any interaction or any words said, there is a huge power imbalance. And being aware of that and being aware of the position that, that puts people in, has changed a lot of the ways that I conduct myself at work. So for example, there's just no reason for me to ever comment on a woman's appearance, especially if I'm the one starting that conversation. There's just no reason for that. And I know there are some men who can chalk that up to, "So what do you mean you can't say anything nice about someone?" Well, no, actually that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is be mindful that how they receive that very likely is not the same way as you're intending it to be.
It's just something I won't do. I'd rather talk about their intellect or the work or some recent accomplishment or if we're having a social conversation, we'll talk up about their activities, their kids, there's certainly a number of things to talk about. I walk into meetings now and subconsciously I'm looking at the representation now. How many women are in this room versus how many men? And I'm also thinking about, are they all brown men? Are they all white men? Do we have representation from the LGBTQ community? That's brand new to me. I used to be someone who would have a lot of interactions with our employees outside of work at bars or restaurants or things like that. That is no longer the case. We will occasionally do something but I find that pushing an agenda to, again, this is sort of how people can take it that, "Oh, to move ahead in this company, you have to participate in these things sort of outside of work or whatnot."
That's not what work is. And work isn't everything. You don't owe that to me and I don't want to take that time from you and I don't drink anymore and I know a number of people who don't drink. And there are things that, again, once you learn it, you just can't unlearn it. I have a number of things that I've done in my past and I'm deeply ashamed of, deeply ashamed of and I would like not to have another one of those for the balance of my life personally and professionally. And that's what I'm working on.
Max Velasco Knott (46:05):
I know from my experience in hearing you share your stories that reconciliation to who we were in the past or things that we've done can be really challenging yet still very important to moving forward and understanding what we all can do differently. My question is, what inspires you to keep doing this work and continue to drive forward because it isn't easy? And especially for men, it can be a lot simpler to kind of fall back on the patriarchal infrastructure that has carried us all forward through our lives thus far. So what inspires you to keep doing this work and have these conversations and continue this project on misogyny and continue exploring this?
Shervin Talieh (47:06):
My sister was raped. The two most significant partners that I've had in my life have both experienced some form of sexual assault. I have a 18 year old daughter. I have three sons and I have a limited amount of time left. We talk about climate change, which is real and is an existential threat. And we talk about it in terms of years and decades. Every day, the women in our lives are suffering, every day, whether we see it or not and maybe I can't do something for other people but if I can, in my own behavior, be less of an asshole, be less of a sexist, then that's some forward progress. So that's why I do it.
Max Velasco Knott (48:19):
Thank you, Shervin. I think that wraps up all the questions that I wanted to ask you today. Is there anything else that you want to add or ask me before we sign off?
Shervin Talieh (48:31):
No, I'll just say that I'm really grateful to have you join me on this project and looking forward to this next chapter in the On Misogyny project with you as my collaborator. So thank you.
Max Velasco Knott (48:49):
Thank you. And I think with that, we can wrap it up.