Gwyn Krueger
About My Guest
Gwyn (he/them) is the Director of CX at Meetup, an app that is dedicated to helping people come together around common interests. Gwyn spends a lot of time thinking about and learning about philosophy, cultural criticism, history, capitalism and white-bodied supremacy and the impact it has on the landscape of our reality and culture. He is interested in understanding the experiences of others as a gateway to building bridges for connection and support. Prioritizing self care, rest, sanity and physical and mental wellness is something Gwyn seeks to invite into all spheres - whether at work with his team, at home with his wife and kiddo, or with himself and his community of friends and family. “Progress not perfection” is a creed he lives by, to seek to do better and participate in acts of learning and unlearning and create safe spaces for those around him (including himself). Gwyn is very proud to be Trans and Queer and humbled and privileged to share his experience with others who are interested in learning about it.
Gwyn Kruger (00:00):
When I was thinking about, "Do I want to transition? Do I want to identify with he pronouns? Do I want to take hormones that are going to make me look more male in presentation?" And it was like, "Do I want to look like a white man?" The answer was not, yes. But the answer was not, no.
Shervin Talieh (00:29):
This is On Misogyny, a conversation series, exploring sexism and misogyny. Like many men, I have a blind spot when it comes to the female experience, especially as it pertains to the systemic hostility, prejudice, and violence they face on a regular basis. And this has resulted in me believing that I was a better ally than I actually was. And not fully appreciating how little had changed for women, and just how much more needed to happen. In each episode, I speak with a guest who wants to help me learn. They share their stories, and in doing so, they're teaching me. While I started this project as a personal quest, the lessons here can help others too. Pleading ignorance is no longer a satisfactory defense. With that, let's begin.
Welcome to another episode of the On Misogyny project. And, this particular show today is going to touch on a lot of themes that relate to, I believe, intersectionality around misogyny. And potentially things that I'm not even aware of or even thinking about. And I'm just looking forward to listening and learning. So, to begin with, I'd love for our guest to introduce themselves.
Gwyn Kruger (01:56):
Hi. Yeah, my name is Gwyn Kruger and my pronouns are he/they. And, to share a little bit about me, I identify as a trans-masculine, non-binary, trans-man. That identity has been fluid for a while now, but that's where I am today. I live in South Orange, New Jersey. I work for a company, you may have heard of it, called Meetup. It's an app for community building and people of like minds and interests coming together to build community. And, I have a son, who is four and a half years old, his name is Odel. And, I'm married. My wife's name is Nella. We've been married for six years. And, yeah, I live a pretty simple life out here in the suburbs. And I'm really excited to share my experience of being a trans-masculine person, and my journey, and experience with misogyny, and sexism, and anything else.
Shervin Talieh (03:14):
Thank you. And, I'm not familiar with the term trans-masculine, can you explain that to me?
Gwyn Kruger (03:20):
Sure. Yeah. There's many, many, many different terms that fall under the transgender or non-binary umbrella. So, it's just one of many. The way that I identify with it is, I've always been a very masculine presenting person and I've always felt very masculine or in touch with my masculine energy and presentation. Today, I identify trans-masculine as I'm a trans-person. So, I actually am medically transitioning, I take hormones. And not everybody who identifies as trans-masculine necessarily is medically transitioning. But for me, I am. And so, as I've progressed in my transition, I've had to journey through, how do I feel, what do I identify with? So, a year ago, I wasn't identifying as trans-masculine, I was identifying as non-binary. As I've gone through my transition, I felt more comfortable with sharing my identity as being trans-masculine.
Shervin Talieh (04:31):
I appreciate that. And, we were having a conversation... And, just disclosure, we're friends, so we've known each other for some time. We were having a conversation, and you shared something that really made me want to have you on this project and just for me to listen and learn from you. But one of the things you shared with me during your transition, you have seen from a different perspective. And I think it was also around sexism. And that was something I'd not heard of before. So, to the extent possible, if you could talk about that, but maybe also leading up to that, however you identified in the past, what were some of your earliest memories? Because as men, I've also been exposed to misogyny and sexism. I may not have been the victim of it, but I certainly have early memories of seeing it, witnessing it, right? Or being an unknowing accomplice to it, potentially. Right? Even something like that. So, if you could touch on both of those themes, I'd like to listen to.
Gwyn Kruger (05:50):
So, I think, there's a lot of layers to one's experience. And, even what we were just talking about my identity as being trans-masculine, or non-binary, or other terms that folks might use. And I think that's actually what's so hard for people to really wrap their minds around, who may identify more with a binary gender. For trans folks, I mean, I'll speak from my own experience, it's so outside of the binary and it's so subjective, right? So, my experience of my gender is really shaped by my experience in the world, from the time that I was first sentient to now. And it's never one thing, where I think existing inside of the construct of the binary, if you identify with it, if you're like, "Yeah, cool. I was assigned male at birth. I've always identified with that gender and the society norms around that gender." Then there's not a lot of questioning that goes into it. Right? And I think for a trans person, from my experience, having been born and been assigned female at birth and really just not identifying with it from the time that I was first sentient.
My mom shares memories of me just never wanting to wear a dress, never wanting to be put into a little girl's bathing suit. That wasn't really conditioning, that was just me not... It didn't resonate for me. So, gender and the gender construct has always been acutely in my mind and a part of my experience. I've always had to relate to it in a way that has felt very radical to actually be authentic in my myself, because I had so much dissonance with what I was told I had to be, or look like, or act, or whatever, and how I really wanted to be.
And so, yeah, there's a lot to unpack there. I could go down a rabbit hole. But I think in terms of sexism, for me, I think a lot of my early upbringing was feeling like I didn't fit into the gender that I was assigned as, birthed as, and told that I had to conform with. And so, I think for the first part of my life, it was really internally having to struggle with that. This was the 80s, there wasn't the same language to really even talk about this thing.
And I think if my parents had that language or had been exposed to some of the language around gender nonconformity, then they probably would've identified it, and been able to engage me in conversation to unpack with me what was going on. Because it was pretty obvious, I think, from the way I would dress up in... I only wanted to wear boys clothes. I would put my hair up in a hat, and I would walk around and be like, "Everybody call me Aaron Cameron." Because that's what I found out my parents were going to name me if I was a boy. So, all the signs were there. But there was no 80s suburban New Jersey. They didn't understand it. And I think if anything, they related it more to sexuality and showing tendencies towards being gay or queer.
And so, as I got older, that's what my language and my understanding of this gender nonconformity, and dissonance, and just not feeling like I fit. And things were felt didn't feel right. The way that I dealt with it, or started to relate to it was as being gay. And being like, "Oh, well I'm attracted to women." So, women who are attracted to women, there's a word for that. And so, I came out pretty early. I was 14. And, I think that was not surprising to anybody in my family, for the most part. There was a pretty good level of acceptance, especially for the time. And, I think coming out as a lesbian, and then also being very masculine presenting, the term in the community is butch lesbian, it's a thing.
There's a very good Broadway musical and comic book artist, her name is escaping me right now, but she wrote the graphic novel that was turned into this Broadway musical called Fun Home. And, it's a great little exploration of a kid going through coming out as this really butch lesbian. And, there's a great song about seeing this butch lesbian in a store, and they had a lot of keys and it's this awesome moment of actually seeing yourself in somebody else, and seeing like, "Oh, I can live that life that I want." And, I had that experience, where I would see very butch presenting people, women, right? I saw them as women, but being very masculine presenting. And I was like, "That's me. I see myself in those people." And, in that, there's a lot of archives and some really amazing history and queer history around that dynamic, it's existed for a really long time of masculine presenting women and the relationships, this...
A lot of it manifests in a very heteronormative relationship, a butch woman with a femme woman. They're together. And, it can seem very heteronormative and performative, but it's it's real. And, I've always looked at it as, these are folks who are trying to live their lives in the most authentic way that they could, during a time that just didn't accept them at all. There's a great book called Stone Butch Blues by Leslie Feinberg, who's this amazing trans activist. And he wrote this great book that really dives into the experience of what it was like to be growing up in the 50s and 60s, and working in factories, and these really blue collar jobs. And being a butch lesbian. And then, becoming trans.
Leslie Feinberg ended up taking hormones and transitioning to a certain extent, but always was an activist and very visible. And is this incredible icon. But yeah, there's a certain amount of sexism, I think that happens in that dynamic, right. Because, it's the butch and the femme. And, there's no judgment. This is just my experience and how I related to it. I saw that dynamic. And so, I myself, I think adopted some very performative and maybe unhealthy misogyny in my own behavior around heteronormative relationship expectations. And, as I got older and started to get into relationships, I had to really unpack a lot of that. I'm still doing that today. And then now, as I've come out as trans and I'm going through a medical transition, I think the most interesting thing for me now is, I feel like I have to be hyper aware of this stuff because I don't want to be perceived as a misogynistic white guy.
And, when somebody just is just meeting me today, they don't know what my history is. I could be pretty invisible unless I share. And, it's not something that I'm going to share every time I meet a new person, that's not appropriate in every setting. But, in a work setting, it's important, for me, I think to conduct myself in a way that's like, I'm aware of the privilege that I have in a room, because of the way that I look. That's real, and I think that, that's something that I'm just starting to really become aware of.
Shervin Talieh (14:38):
Wow. The level of introspection that you have and the ability to fight the temptation to center things, it's pretty remarkable. And in this case, how you bring it up... And I'm going to use some of the labels that I heard you use. And if I'm speaking incorrectly, just feel free to correct me. But, the timeline, coming out at 14 as a lesbian woman, you are already witnessing how straight men react to that, because many men view that as a rejection, right? There's really interesting dynamic there. You're not gay, you just haven't been with the right man, that thing. Right? You probably know more about it than I do. And then, as I hear you, you're married. Right? So, you're married. And, the thing that you shared with me was, now in your transition, you are seeing people treat you differently than your wife, than your partner. Right? And, that was a really interesting point that you brought up to me, that you said, being on this other side and also being aware of your privilege, and again, not centering things, you are able to see this holistically. Right?
And so, all your life with all the milestones and stages that you've gone through, you have been a threat to the patriarchy, in some shape or form, right? Because, you don't fit into a normative category for them to be able to label, and package, and do whatever with. Can you talk a little bit about that and maybe what are some of the new experiences that you're having now, things that I should know of, and things that you would want me to be aware of?
Gwyn Kruger (16:52):
Yeah. I mean, I think that's interesting that you say that. The concept of being a threat to the patriarchy, living as a queer person, even having a kid, the way that we did it. We did a donor, and reciprocal IVF, meaning my egg and my wife carried our son. Yeah. There was not a lot of male involvement. So, I would say, assign biological. And yeah, I think, those things, it's a source of pride in a way. It always has been in my mind of like, "Oh, well..." I would joke like, "Oh, I asexually reproduced myself."
And, there's a big thing around visibility for my wife and I. We've had a lot of conversations about this. She identifies as pansexual, omnisexual. So, she's been with people of all gender identities in her relationships. And, when she married me, I identified as a butch lesbian. And so, when I came out as trans, we had to have a dialogue around how that impacted the relationship, because me coming out as trans impacts her identity, in terms of, who she's married to. And, when we go to P town for summer vacation, now we look like a straight couple, instead of looking like a very visibly couple. And so, I think there's a lot there. Being perceived as two queer people in a relationship that's... Right? You can just see, we're a rejection of the patriarchy, in a way. Right?
And, transitioning, this was a big thing for me when I was thinking about, "Do I want to transition? Do I want to identify with he pronouns? Do I want to take hormones that are going to make me look more male in presentation?" And it was like, "Do I want to look like a white man?: The answer was not, yes. But the answer was not, no. And, that's part of why I'm transitioning later than I think a lot of folks. I mean, for me, I didn't come to this conclusion until later, I just turned 40 in April. And so, it's like, why now? But, it's because the further that I go into this transition, for me, the more comfortable and the more I'm like, "Wow, this is really affirming."
I feel like I am more fully myself than I've ever been. But at the same time, I'm seeing the world through totally different set of eyes, because the way that I've perceived is shift and that's a trip. And, it manifests in exactly what we're talking about, where it's hard for me to tell if I'm being perceived in a different way, because I'm more confident or because people just see me differently. It's probably a combination of both things, but even in work situations, I feel like I'm more like, "Here's the solution." And, people are like, "Yeah." And I didn't feel like I was getting so affirmed in meetings in the past. And, I'm like, "Am I just being paranoid, or is this real, or maybe it's a combination of the two things." And it's interesting. And, I'm also like, "Oh, I got to really check my privilege here. And check how I'm showing up and how I'm talking to people more than ever." I think it's always been important. I haven't always been great at it, but now more than ever, I think it's really important.
Shervin Talieh (21:12):
That work use case, that one really hit home. We've been discussing with one of my co-hosts on the show, this article that came out about how to run a feminist company. And I'd never heard of the term, a feminist company. I thought, "Oh, does that mean that all the decisions are made by women?" Which is so absurd, right? That's actually not what it means, but one of the points that it made was around how by contrast, right, these masculine, competitive organizations take on a certain set of rituals and identities. And it's basically around scarcity and acknowledgement of a few that produce outsized gains. And, there's always a sense of, "Who do I have to step on to get to the top?" And that sort of thing. Whereas, by contrast, as they framed it in a feminist run company or a feminist company, you're sharing your platform always. Instead of always leading, sometimes you're just facilitating. And, as a cis brown man, the idea of not being visible to lead or to put my signature on something, my stamp somehow, right, on something is just... I don't even know how to lead without that. Right?
So, I think what you're describing in that case is really, really interesting that the attribution, how much of this is because of your transition. And also, how others have been conditioned to respond to, let's say, more of a male appearance versus a female appearance, again, my words.
Gwyn Kruger (23:07):
Yeah. There's so many layers, and so many factors that go into a boardroom meeting, and it's not just my experience, it's the experience of everybody in that room. And, our societal conditioning to have values that we've been conditioned to accept that are the basis for capitalism and white supremacy. And, there's a lot that goes on in any given moment in all of the boardrooms, and meetings, and decision making points in a lot of the companies in our country and in our society. And, deconstructing it is exhausting. It's fascinating, but it's exhausting, because there's just so much to see, once you start seeing it, you can't unsee it.
I don't know about you. I sense that we're probably similar in this, but I have a tendency where I'm like, "Okay, now I'm understanding. And I'm waking up to the societal, and equity, and injustice. And I want to do everything I can to fix myself right now so that I can help everybody. I need to do all this stuff right now." And that impulse can actually create, I think, more harm and confusion, than taking the time to really learn, and unlearn, and slowly pause, and check myself, and be okay with making a mistake, learn how to apologize effectively. That's the real work is really being patient with ourselves and real with ourselves on like, "Okay, I have work to do here, what can I do? What can I start with? What's the first intentional thing I can do?" Versus just going in and being like, "I'm going to teach everybody how to be woke."
Shervin Talieh (25:17):
I love that. I read a quote. And, I will look for the attribution and posted in the notes later. And it was something like this, when black men die, white people start book clubs. And, the energy is exactly what you're saying. It's this ferocity to do, as opposed to just be. And especially in Western cultures, right, we're judged and measured by our to-do lists and how a much of it are on project plans and how much... It's very odd, right? And this is, I think, what you're describing and the work that you're doing, and you've inspired me with the work that you've been doing. A lot of it is through being open and being present, which means not aggressively or actively engaging all the time. It's being able to receive to reimagine.
Which leads me to a topic that I really wanted to discuss with you. We are both parents of four and a half year old boys, and I've had the pleasure of witnessing our kids play together. How do we raise boys, or girls for that matter, but in this case, we both happen to have boys, what do we do differently? What can we do to give their generation and the generation after them a better shot at not having omnipresent misogyny?
Gwyn Kruger (26:54):
Yeah. I mean, I think, there's a lot of factors that go into helping with that. I mean, I think one thing I'll say is, our kids, we don't know what gender they're going to identify as, right? I know a couple who had a child and they're raising their child non-binary. Their child has they/them pronouns. And, they're raising their child non-binary. And it's a bold move that logically makes sense if you accept the premise that the binary is a construct. So, I mean, I think that, that's a really radical move. But, I hope that as time progresses, it becomes less and less radical. For my kid, Ode, he's never used she/her pronouns for me, he's always used they/them, or just said my name. He calls me Baba, that's my parental term. He knows me to be a person.
So, the way that he relates to gender is that there are boys, and there are girls, and there are men, and there are women, there are people. And people encompasses all of that, but there are also some people who don't identify as men, or women, or boys, or girls. Whatever he's interested in, we encourage him, we don't discourage anything. So if he's interested in something that's more feminine, we're like, "Yeah." Obviously, we don't have anything to say about that. But I think, more than anything, it's demonstrating authenticity and encouraging authenticity. So, a big part of me going through this transition and sharing this with my family, like my parents is, I really feel it's important for me to live my truth, so that I can be a role model to my kid, my child, to see that whatever his truth ends up being, he can feel empowered to live it. Even if it's perceived as being challenging or hard.
So I think that, that's a big part of it. I think the other thing is just exposing our kids to different points of view. Doing this work that you're doing here is... You're exposing yourself to different points of view and then your kids are going to see that, that's a value you have. And so, you're sharing that value with them. Yeah. I mean, we really try to make sure that he is just age appropriately being exposed to different experiences of different cultures and different people. And, I think as he gets older, we can be more intentional about the conversations we have, and the experiences that we expose him to. They can be more mature, I guess. But for now it's just normalizing everything, really.
Shervin Talieh (30:12):
I love that. Thank you. I found that we are also very lucky to have a son who at least twice a week wants to explore his feminine side. And he has a pink dress, and he has days where he wants nail polish. And, I remember, it's interesting because my older son Keon who's 20, he had something similar too, but my reaction to it was not the same. At the time, I didn't stop it, but I know I wasn't totally thrilled with it at some level. And I remember this discomfort that would come to me. And, just being very honest about it was like, "I don't know what this means. And this isn't 'normal.'" Or something like that. And having this time, you're talking about your parents, when you came out at 14 and they did the best that they could with given what they knew and all of that.
And this is not to excuse my behavior, or my perspective, but it's really to illustrate the point that the more we know, the better we can make it for the next one, and the next one. And, this leads me to another topic, which is where from the outside I see some friction potentially. There's a term you're probably familiar with, turf. And we talked about privilege. And, sometimes we also talk about how for misogyny to work a class of white women actually have to enable that as well, because they're the beneficiaries of the system. And we've seen that, specifically, let's say with the second wave of feminism and coming up against trans movement, if you will. What are your thoughts on that, having experienced this maybe from different perspectives? I'm curious, and I don't want to say anymore. I'm just really open-ended. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
Gwyn Kruger (32:37):
Yeah. I mean, I've seen this issue... Back in the 2000s and I think even the 90s, there was this really cool festival called the Michigan women's festival, which was this Nike lesbian, out in the woods for a week or a long weekend. And, women would go and it was only women, their own space, they'd have all these performing artists. And it was a music festival. And they'd set up all these tents and have all these activities. And it was this really cool thing, it was Michigan the Womyn's Festival, Womyn, W-O-M-Y-N-S. And, I don't remember the year, maybe it was 2015 or something like that the last one happened. And the reason there was this big schism in the community, and my understanding of this whole situation was basically trans women wanted to go. And, there were two camps. One camp was like, "Absolutely not. There can be no people who weren't assigned female at birth here." And then, the other camp was like, "No, these are women. These people are women. They should be allowed to be here. This is a women's festival."
My perspective is that gender is a construct. So, if it's a construct, the definition can change, because it's not rooted in anything beyond our definitions. So, for turfs, I believe that they want the definition of women to be something that's a lot more rigid and defined by certain biological characteristics. I think that, that's a very exclusionary definition that's going to cause a lot of harm because we've seen that, that's just not how. There are a lot of people who identify as women who were not assigned female at birth. And may not even present in a way that looks characteristically female, which is the beauty of trans, I think, and non-binary, it's a beautiful thing, in that, it's so rich that somebody who outwardly looks completely male by every marker could actually say, "I actually identify as a woman and I want you to use these pronouns for me." And that's how amazing...
And, I think a lot of people are confused by that concept, but it's so subjective. That is what gender is, is a subjective experience. And I think that's what these very rigid definitions fail to encompass. There's a whole rainbow of ways that people can experience their gender. It's amazing. And, we traditionally have two as a society. And now that's being challenged, and there's a camp of people who don't want that to... They feel very threatened by that concept. Their identity is very tied to what it means to be a woman. And, I think that, that's what it's about. It's fear, I think, I feel like the turf movement, I guess... I don't know if I want to call it a movement, but what's happening there, J. K. Rowling, all of that stuff. It's fear-based. And, I mean, I think it'll change. I think, that we're just seeing what we saw with homosexuality in the 90s. And, from Stonewall on. So, yeah, it's real, but I think it's starting to change. But we're going through it, there's a big struggle right now.
Shervin Talieh (36:25):
Oppression is sinister, in that, the people who have been oppressed, they themselves turn into oppressors. That's the cycle of oppression and trauma. And, I'm grateful that we were able to listen to your story and your perspective. As a father and as a student, you're giving me a lot to work on, and to think about. Specifically, I think, again, as it relates to misogyny, misogyny requires these very well defined boxes. And it's interesting that... I think you and I talked offline about this, [Alok 00:37:13] talks about fashion and how fashion has been used as a way to categorize and know, "Okay, dresses are for those people. And we know those people are not allowed to the voting booth, or to do this, or to do that." As an example, when you talk about a spectrum, when you talk about... It's a abstract framework, and it's fluid. It just takes a sledgehammer to a patriarchal system, or to traditional feminism, or to any of these modalities that require clear boxes if you will.
Gwyn Kruger (37:56):
Yeah. I mean, and I think we're at this very important inflection point of really mainstream... And we're talking healthcare systems. A really good friend of mine, Stephanie Holder just wrote an article. She works in pharmaceutical marketing, and she wrote a whole article about breaking the binary in healthcare. And how healthcare providers talk about things like breast cancer, right? Who does that impact? Well, it impacts people who have breasts, but not everybody who has breasts is a woman. So, that kind of thinking is very groundbreaking in the mainstream, but it's starting to enter. We saw tan packs, I think, recently changed somebody took the feminine symbol off the female symbol off of their packaging. And, there's a lot around separating biology with gender. It's a separate thing and it's starting to really be accepted. And that opens up so much possibility for accepting gender as being a spectrum, not being in a binary, which is just so freeing for so many people.
Shervin Talieh (39:16):
Thank you for that. And this is going to really challenge some ideas. And, I've actually heard this from some women that men can't be feminists, which is an absurd, outdated thought process. Right? But I've also heard from some women that for misogyny to end, men need to fundamentally change, obviously. Right? But to think that the trans movement could be the catalyst for that is really fascinating, right? Talk about a win-win. And this is why it goes back to intersectionality, right? The trans community is perhaps the greatest ally to women in the challenging of systemic misogyny. Right? So, that's at least some of the hope, and inspiration, and guidance that I'm getting from you. I want to thank you for your time, and your wisdom, and the candor, and your friendship. And, you've given me some great new material to look into as well.
Gwyn Kruger (40:24):
Same. Thanks for having me on.